I added some content to the 'text' section of the guidelines page that you asked about. It is still rather sparse. I suppose that part of the reason for this is that much of the site edits have been handled by Dru and myself. She mostly adding the content and usually images, and basically being the editor of the resulting handbook. I have tried to make improvements in other areas and have done some edits and image uploads (which I also tried to document some best methods).
If you have further thoughts on any part of this process, including wiki templates, wiki documentation, and anything else, I am willing to listen. I feel that what we should strive for, is a level nearing wikipedia. There are still many things that can be improved, especially things that would make an editor's job easier, shorter, or more intuitive. You found the style guidelines page, which means either it made sense to seek it, or it is something normally found on a wiki site. I am not sure of all such pages, that is part of the reason why a lot of the editor documentation is missing.
I might suggest to explore the entire wiki site and see what is here already. The special pages are very helpful for discovering problems, such as double redirects and other faulty things. I have tried to have all handbook pages categorized, and all useful pages with one of the two headers.
--Tigersharke 02:48, 6 July 2012 (PDT)
You're doing fine. I looked at your change to 'security' and don't see any problems with the wording. Its good to have another active editor on the wiki. If you have any questions about the templates or suggestions for new templates, I'm willing to assist with them. Templates can be quite challenging to create, but I eventually succeed with my ideas.
As I said once before, I want editing the wiki to be as simplified as possible while also being as automated as possible, both are accomplished by well-designed templates. It will take time to finesse those solutions in template form, but eventually they will exist.
It also helps you and any other editor, to have written guidelines and other editor documentation. With these, we can remain consistent on the entire wiki site, not only the handbook portion of it.
I think I should set aside a space somewhere for the ideas I desire or plan for. I'll let you know when it exists and where.
Thank you for all your efforts!
--Tigersharke 13:39, 8 July 2012 (PDT)
Your request for "define numbering consecutively"- is this meant to be part of the Collation section of the style guidelines? I'm not sure if there is a certain 'best' or 'worst' way of doing it. Unless you have a certain example that you could give me to help with defining this in a general way?
--Tigersharke 13:39, 8 July 2012 (PDT)
- I mean numbered lists (by using
- The Style Guidelines are saying for Bullets that a hard enter between the items are needed (to ensure that the PDF and EPUB versions format correctly).
- For example in Creating an Automated Installation with pc-sysinstall you can find the following code.
To create a custom installation, perform the following steps:
1. Text for step 1
2. Text for step 2
3. Text for step 3
These steps are discussed in more detail below.
- And what is going on in EasyPBI?
- An other variant (yes, i modified it also) is used in Printing#Manually Adding a Driver.
- There is an other one in PC-BSD Wiki:Style Guidelines#External Hypertext Links. It is a mix of HTML and wiki-markup (or not?).
- Please create rules for numbered lists. :-)
- --Rg 21:07, 8 July 2012 (PDT)
Here is a response to some of those questions:
- The PC-BSD Wiki:Style Guidelines#External Hypertext Links is all wiki markup, although part of it does look like html because it uses < and > to enclose some things. I need to make parts of it bold to better clarify it. In addition to this, there are certain situations where it truly is a mix of wiki markup and html, such as the Wiki Site TODO page.
- At the moment, I do not believe there is a specific rule already being followed for when to use numbered lists. It would make sense to use them for specific step-by-step instruction, however, I do not believe that this is used much at all. I believe that the primary method of describing processes is entirely with words rather than numbered lists. I will have to skim through the handbook to see how it might best be used and clarify the conditions that would necessitate it.
- The EasyPBI page is missing a number of images, that automatically become red text to indicate this. The odd "2." you noticed seems to be a remnant of an edit, and not intentional. The page may not yet be as perfect as desired or may be incompletely modified, causing some of the consistency issues and other flaws.
- Beware, there are templates of various format on the wiki, including more than one way to make the tables. The intent with all variants is to eventually simplify and speed up editing. I will have to set aside somewhere to indicate which templates have been depreciated, or perhaps simply a "depreciated" category tag for those.
Thank you for your help and motivation toward getting things defined. It will help us all to stay consistent. I already now realize PC-BSD Wiki:Style Guidelines appears to incompletely apply to itself.
--Tigersharke 22:42, 8 July 2012 (PDT)
With regard to the use of hard enter for bullets, I am uncertain if or how this makes a difference because the wiki software will re-interpret all content anyways. I believe a more proper way of handling the "hard enter" would be to add a <br> tag.
--Tigersharke 01:27, 9 July 2012 (PDT)
Brand new template added to style guidelines- citelink now has its use for external links described. Other changes to the guidelines as well, and they will continue to be improved.
--Tigersharke 01:34, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
thin client page
I am curious whether you are able to successfully edit & save any edits to the Thin Client page. There is a weird bug of some sort that prevents me from editing the whole page or the first section, and being able to save it. If the content of the first section is all selected, you may see a few places where there appear to be extra spaces (at the end of lines, one is at the beginning of a blank line). I do not believe those are actually spaces, but something else which causes this error I describe.
Anyhow, either the page can be fixed by someone other than myself (no clue why I am lucky to be bitten by this bug), or at the very least, the external links within the page need to be switched to citelink format as described in the style guidelines.
Thank you for all your efforts!
--Tigersharke 00:46, 25 July 2012 (PDT)
I cannot see "to much spaces" or other strange things. So probably I cannot help, at all.
--Rg 04:38, 25 July 2012 (PDT)
Those will work fine now. Thanks! For future interwiki type links, they can also use the citelink template in a shorter form (similar idea to usual interwiki link). The style guidelines lists the sites that I setup for this interwiki function, in the special external section.
--Tigersharke 13:51, 25 July 2012 (PDT)
All right! I am happy, that it works (fine)!
BTW: I am a friend of "simple" things (can be used by everyone). So I prefer the "style" of interwiki links (by using a namespace like syntax. Anyway thanks a lot for the (great) template. Of course I will use it, starting from now.
--Rg 15:57, 25 July 2012 (PDT)
- Pages that are part of the handbook will have these categories: handbook, macro topic (such as control panel), topic (such as bluetooth manager). Whether micro, nano, pico, or atto topics get categories as well, is not as clear. They *could* but since those are often more verbose, they would probably need to be made a bit more concise (few words, like no more than 2 or three) without losing detail.
- Other pages on the wiki, may have the category pc-bsd wiki and a category of the topic it fits.
- The category, categories is only for category pages and not to categorize normal pages.
- Categorizing images- similar hierarchy would be used as with handbook pages, especially to add a category tag for the page the image appears on.
- It is okay to create new categories by giving a page a new category membership. It will display a redlink for the category which can be used to make it official and add a description for the new category.
Exploring to see how things are already and discovering what exists are the best ways to learn what to do. I cannot claim that there is perfect consistency through the entire wiki, or even the entire handbook portion of the wiki, but hopefully there is enough consistency to understand the intent and the general rule being applied. I have tried to document things in the Style Guidelines, and various other places (ie, on templates or categories). It never hurts to ask when you are unsure, but as you've also noticed, recent changes will alert you to where you may take a look whether changes are needed (in other words, you can use your best judgement and 'go for it,' you won't permanently wreck anything :).
Thanks for your time and efforts on the wiki, it is certainly appreciated.
--Tigersharke 22:38, 29 July 2012 (PDT)
reminder for myself
- Regeln und Stil für die Übersetzung ins Deutsche
- etwa in Anlehnung Leitfaden zum Stil für die Übersetzung bei Haiku
- Definition für verwendete Wörter und Redewendungen, aber auch Ausdrücke für das GUI
- etwa in Anlehnung Terminologie für die Übersetzung bei Haiku
schön, dass ich nicht "alleine" bin. Hab zwar schon mal einen Aufruf in bsdforen.de gestartet, aber die erhoffte Unterstützung bliebt bisher aus. Naja, kann ja noch werden :)
I simply wish to have some clarification on your exact method for translating any particular wiki page. I want to be sure of how you are doing it so that I can avoid any of my own assumptions. So, step by step if you please with screenshots if necessary. Thank you very much.
I really want to solve the issue that has been causing trouble for you as a translator, which may also solve it for others.
Actually, for ONE page, I think I know the problem. When the original page gets modified, the translations of that page are essentially no longer synchronized. The section(s) that are highlighted as "out of date" are properly marked as being not synchronized and may need attention. However, if a section of the original page is modified, but it has not been marked again to be translated, I believe this is what you may be running into. Since the section is recognized as being not synchronized, it will need to be fixed in translation but there is a moment when the original has been modified but not yet flagged to be translated. I hope this makes sense.
I have run into it myself, where a section that I have edited multiple times does not seem to get saved, and likely does not- because the modified page section(s) need to be re-approved but I forgot to do that before adjusting the translation (even English has this step afaik though nothing changes).
This is one problem solved. Whether it is the same problem in all places, I do not know but I doubt that it is.
There is no real reason for any of the 10.0 pages to not be marked for translation. Check this list (Second half: Pages in translation) if you have problems, and they can be marked again for translation. I will go through them now for all 10.0 pages.
Just a quick note for myself!
--v 18:58, 22 December 2014 (PST)
I have added some things to help facilitate this. check Handbook translating/common. I have added the translated words and phrases that are already used in the various templates. This is going to be a new method for all translators, so it will be one place for template words/phrases instead of having to hunt down multiple places to translate just one word or phrase. The plan is also to eventually tie the URL for each word and phrase to the templates- right now some are ordinary pages, some are templates, but none are linked to the specific words on this new page.
Please feel welcome to suggest better instructions or wording for the Handbook translating and Handbook translating/common pages, so that the English version can be improved as needed. Both pages *should* be set to allow translation of them. For the 'common' page, there is small instruction in the comments of the actual English page, which I hope make sense. The table that you can add/improve on for your "Terminologie für die Übersetzung" (see how the translation looks: Handbook translating/common/de).
I noticed your new notes (at Talk:Handbook_translating/de) that mention 'Sie Form'.. Is the expectation that the entire German translation use 'Sie Form'? If so, I would recommend that the translation language actually be designated as Deutsch (Sie-Form) which is a language translation system option. This way, those who wish to use the formal can translate comfortably, while those who prefer or know the not 'Sie Form' wouldn't be corrected frequently I guess. Something to think about. :)
The page 'Talk:Handbook_translating/de' is a reasonable place to store notes. Such things can also be added to the 'Handbook translating/common' page as well but the question may be whether you'd like those additional items/text to be transcluded into the 'Handbook translating' page the same way as your specific table of words/phrases is. Let me know and I can make adjustments.
Also: It is going to take quite a long time and considerable effort, but the plan is to adjust all of the translation elements of every wiki page (especially handbook sections since its the primary translated content) so that the translation elements contain the least amount of non-translated content as possible. Some places it will be unavoidable, when a template replaces a word or has text assigned to it, but I hope to switch away from having the <translate> and </translate> tags only used once on the page to contain it as a whole. Another major change will occur when I switch to transclusion and handbook framework method. For this, the bulk of each page will be in the "pagename"/content with the framework on "pagename". And the third significant change will affect only part of the handbook pages- those that are identical for every version of the handbook will become one single page rather than being duplicated for every version of the handbook, ie, 9.2, 10.0, 10.1, and 10.1.1 would all reference the same page, like the Lumina desktop which is not tied to PC-BSD/handbook version. The pages for mailing lists, forums, finding help, and some others, are not tied to version either. These changes hope to reduce the work for all and make things consistent as much as possible.
First of all I would like to apologize for that (to) "quick" contribution. :-/ I did not accepted that it is written that fast. ;-)
I (for myself) was not sure where to put it in. I decided that place (a talk page) because maybe it will be discussed. Grundsätze is German for rules, convention, policy or something like that. On the other hand I was interested to keep it simple and have completely translatable page and keep such special stuff out of normal sites. Probably that fast choice was stupid. :-( :-D
The Sie-Form (or Du-Form) is as decision for every document in German, for every memo, letter, content management system or handbook. Important is that it is consistent (in the whole document). The difference is that the Sie-Form is more "honorific". In German you use it if you do not know people and treat them respectfully. (By the way: I do not like it that much. But anyone else - User:Elwood probably - was interested to use this "style".)
I hope that I get a few days to think about. (I also aimed to add a English description what this "rules" are about.)
--v 05:06, 1 February 2015 (PST)
no problems, no worries..
We'll all figure this out somehow. The system we are developing here on our wiki is a bit different than what wikipedia does, even if it uses some of the same Mediawiki technology. Some things might not have an equivalent in other languages, so its not a simple thing to have text in English which each translator puts in their language. This is why there is one table that has no original text in English, even if it could be bilingual on each language page (as you have done for German).
Discussion is certainly possible, on the 'talk:Handbook translating/common' page, on irc when those with a need to discuss can meet, or in person. Finalized decisions/solutions can eventually be incorporated into the formal 'Handbook translating' or 'Handbook translating/common' pages as appropriate.
This is all a new road for us, eventually it will make travel easier when the surface has been well-defined and high quality. :)
Anything in Handbook translating/common that is marked to translate may be translated- the only exception is the portion which is not intended to have an English original (ie the section that will be a filled table on the translated aka /de page). Of course sometimes various things may change in the limited original English text on the page, but my intention is to greatly minimize those changes as much as possible. I do not wish to cause more work for the translators. Causing more work may be unavoidable when there are major transitions of the wiki markup or templates. Shifting the <translate> tags to better encapsulate only translatable text is one major change, though I am more interested in adding further templates (or adjustments/enhancements to them).